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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:51 am 
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Please do not get me wrong, I think pin trading is a lot of fun and a great way to meet new people at a Camporee. But, I have come to believe that we need to setup a two tier system for Pathfinder pin trading. We :oops: adults have taken the trading of pins beyond what most of the youth we bring to the Camporee can participate in. We now have our fancy lighted, puzzle, spining pins which most of the youth can not afford to own much less trade way for something else.

I would like to propose that each Conference have a pin that conforms to a set specification. For example, a pin that is the size of a quarter with a maximum of 4 colors. Each Conference Pathfinder Group would provide a minimum 1000 of these pins. With these "spec" pins, then the youth could trade pins knowing that each Conference pin is worth exactly the same as the next. It would remove the "there are only 100 of these here and it is worth more than the 6 pins you have" lies that have taken place since Dare to Care.

With this level playing field pin area in place for the youth, then us crazy :roll: adults can play at the next level with whatever pins the traffic will bear. This would also allow the adults to have something (Conferece Pins) to trade with the youth. I had a difficult time at DTP and especially FOF trading with the youth because I could not find a good source of simple pins.

If you think this two tier idea has merit, please contact your Conference Pathfinder/Youth Director and make a pitch for it. We need to start now to have all the kinks worked out for the next big Camporee.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

Mr. Mike
ARKLA Pathfinder/Adventurer Council Chair
Area Coordinator for North LA and South ARK

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:13 pm 
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The Arizona Conference did just that. Our Coordinators and Director (with the insight of Bernie Clark a Coordinator) had pins made for each of the regions in our state and one for the whole state (there are fewer of these - they were available to coordinators only). Each club had a chance to order pins for their region in a quantity that suited their budget starting in 2003.

It is a good idea. I would think the point of pin trading at a Camporee is to trade Pathfinder and SDA pins.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:46 pm 
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What was funny about the Arizona pins is that they had a "bad batch" where some of the colors were off. This only happened to a few, so it made them very rare. I had a Pathfinder who collected the "whole" set: the original and the "bad batch" pins. It was pretty cool.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:55 pm 
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The North Pacific Union made some nice looking pins, and all in our club got at least one set. We also got a free UCC (Upper Columbia Conference) pin.

I didn't trade pins, I never had a chance. I value the full set I have, and will treasure them for quite some time.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:33 am 
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I think my point may not have been completely understood.
ARKLA also had conference pins (two difference sets), but individual conference pins are not what I am talking about.

As a group, we need to spec a pin that is not expensive and the same across the Pathfinder Organization so that the youth can trade them one Conference pin for another on an even basis.

For Example, the low end ARKLA pin was a very large state flag puzzle set. While this set was priced low, it would not trade one for one with a small single pin from another Conference.

What is needed is a standard sized/type pin from EVERY Conference. Once this standard pin is available for the younger set to trade, then the special feature pins can be traded by those that can afford the high price game.

Mr. Mike

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 Post subject: Pin trading
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:15 pm 
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Hey there. This is a good topic brought up - and I have something to say about it as well.

I thoroughly enjoyed trading pins - in fact, in our club that was about the only thing we were able to do because ALL honors and activities were loaded to max capacity! SAD! I think it's fair not only for every club to have their own unique pin, but to trade for something that another person considers worthy. I have some of those special pins, such as the spinner, light-ups, and puzzles. Although I didn't collect them all (such as Missouri and Northern pacific) I had a ton of fun, along with our Pathfinders. I am a counselor by the way. Our club, the Panama City SonSeekers of Panama City, FL and in the Gulf States Conf (the conf with the lighthouse in the Southern Union) had a beautiful set. It was a collection of 4 pins, inc. the FOF insignia, and one pin of each state in the conf, which is alabama, mississippi, and the panhandle of florida. We would trade these pins for sets or hard to get pins. The MOST important thing was that the kids learned the art of being fair. This will come into more important handiness as they age and mature, leading into their everyday life with their neighbors. The only thing I didn't like about the rarity of the pins is that their was actually auctioning within some of the clubs. I saw a purple spinner pin go for over $80.00!!! It's amazing! Our club was able to purchase the last sets in the conf and sell them to help raise funds for our trip back home - which took us 2 days. We also used the money to get us back on our feet after repairing a trailor and staying in hotels and eating out, since our camp food was gone. PRAISE THE LORD FOR EXTRA MONEY RAISING!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:45 am 
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The sadest thing about pin trading I witnessed was the predator adults. There were adults (hopefully just a few) that would take advantage of our younger set in the quest for collecting some pin for their collection. We had two great ARKLA Conference pin sets and an over the top club pin set to trade and we had these predators in our campsite all the time trying to steal pins from our younger Pathfinders and staff children.

It is mostly for this reason that I believe we need a standard size and type of pin from each Conference that has the same worth as all the other Conference pins so that the younger set can trade them, one for one, in confidence and not have to worry with these predator traders. This way they can have the fun of trading and meeting people from all over the world that love Jesus just like they do.

I do think there is a place for the wild, fancy pins, but not as the mainstay of the pin trading event. Pins have been good for us. The ARKLA Pathfinder Adventurer Council (PAC) has used pin sales to our Conference Pathfinders to raise PAC operating funds for several years. The Shreveport Pathfinders used pins to finance a large part of our trip to Faith on Fire. Our Pathfinder Organization just needs to establish a system to put this event on a two tier basis. One level for fun and the other level for whatever else comes up.


For His kids,

Michael Salzman (Mr. Mike)
ARKLA PAC Chair

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:19 pm 
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A great place to find pins is garage sales. Most of the pins I brought to share were 10-25 cents each. Flea markets, estate sales and post holiday sales are also good sources. The best part of pin trading is the people you meet. I actually found someone who had a picture of my grandmother who died many years ago.


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 Post subject: Pins dialogue
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:17 am 
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Please keep this dialogue going. Your thoughts on this matter are much appreciated by the leadership.

The reality is that the best "governance" for some of the issues we experienced at FOF is OURSELVES. We say we follow the Pledge and Law, though I think that is true in all aspects except trading at times. . . .

We are the ones, as staff, that MUST police ourselves.

Please keep the dialogue coming, I've alerted Elder Black to this thread.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:48 am 
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So true. I praise the Lord that I didn't run into many adults that had the pin-trading habit of "predator". I made sure to stay along side with as many of my kids as possible to make sure everything stayed fair. The TLTs did great. The younger ones had to learn something brand new, so they loved to hang out with me to learn all about it, since I was a camporee pin trading "veteran" lol. I would referee everything and we made up secret signs to let us know whether it was a fair trade. The rule I made up and it soon passed to everyone in our camp was: "Trade pathfinder pins for pathfinder pins, anything else trades for non-pathfinder pins. Sets trade for sets." Everyone had so much fun once we learned how to have fun trading. If you're not careful, trading can become a "predatory act" and become a harmful experience, not one that I want my companion class to observe. God bless you all in pin trading, lets teach EVERYONE how to be fair and have fun at the same time. Isn't that what the pin trading school was all about???

Marcie


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:36 pm 
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I e-mailed Elder Black right after FOF on this subject. It will not be new to him.


Mr. Mike

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 Post subject: Pin Trading
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:48 pm 
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I agree with Site Admn. As adult leaders we must police ourselves with regard to the pin trade arena. I have observrd this from its inception. At Camp Hale there were NO camporee pins. The items most frequently traded were small items that the Pathfinders "happened" to have with them at the time. There were a few state pins and others that were traded.When FRIENDSHIP CAMPOREE wasplanned, our Pathfinder Association requested permission to produce the official camporee pin. The first camporee pin struck for a national camporee. Since that time pin trading has become "the in thing" at camporees. I have produced a variety of pins for several conferences. Most of them have been of very modest cost. This past camporee (FOF), I witnessed a huge change in the pins that were brought to trade. The pins were MUCH larger and costly than in previous camporees. The change was so obvious that I could not sell a large number of the pins that I brought to sell as souveniors. I do not feel however that regulation is the answer to the situation. I believe that we as leaders of youth must follow the golden rule and teach the Pathfinders to do the same.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:39 pm 
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I think I will just throw this in the mix. This may be, sort of, what you meant Mike.

We establish a base design, not unlike common Government seals in the USA. That is; most states, cities and the Fed use a round pin or seal with an outer ring. I do not advocate this as mandatory but recommended. A second design is to simply reduce the Conference emblem worn on the uniform to pin size about an inch to an inch and a half across the base.

For the circular pin we go with Mike's recommendation, about the size of a quarter. The outer ring will bear the name of the entity: Conference, club, union, or division, and the word Pathfinders, or Pathfinder Club (for clubs inlcude conference name). The base color of the ring is red and the color of the print is Gold, Yellow, white, or blue (commonly). The center of the pin is the logo of the entity. If it is a club then their logo (if none is adopted either the conference logo or a reduced version of the small triangle patch). For Aministrative branches a reduced version of their logo. A year may be used for the comemoration and maybe a change of letter coloring. It is simple, a one for one trade. The "fun" is incollecting as many as possible from a particular area or... Cost will be effected by the numer fo colors that are in your logo design and can be reduced by limiting color. Conferences wishing to do what we did in Arizona can still make regional pins based on this system as well.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Exective Director
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:49 am 
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Chris, you have the correct idea. I don't know if I would go any futher than to specify a size and number of colors along with the minimum quantity, but that would be up to the committee that sets the specifications. As to a seal with an other ring etc. I thought would just leave it as a fixed size with four colors. Then the creative talent can go to work from there. With the fixed size and colors these pins can be traded one for one by even the youngest at a Camporee . The fun would be to see how many different conferences you can collect. Doing the shoulder patch would be another way to go. I have a couple of pins of that type in my collection.

There would be nothing to keep a conference from doing a whiz bang, flashing light, puzzle pin that spins once they have the "base" pin available. Club pins would still be open to whatever the club comes up with. The "base" conference pin would be the pin that can be traded by the non-professional pin traders.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:39 pm 
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The "Seal" thought was so that a pin could bear a logo and still be easily identified with less confusion. That and if a conference stayed uniform and recommends a particular pin contact the set up is likely to be reduced to some degree as the basic shape is identical throughout.

Honestly; I can think of more useful and purposeful items and activities to spend a groups money on than fancy lapel/hat pins. I think, maybe those who have a desire to spend ministry money on ellaborate items that can be as good for less $ may want to spend some time praying about their ministy's purpose. I like pins, collect'em in quantity. Have been known to pay from my pocket a bit too much for antiquated MV and Pathfinder Pins. Would never spend ministry money at it. Part of my collection is intended to be an exhibit, museum of sorts for Pathfinders; I finance that personnally and have never taken money for it. The $'s can be used better elsewhere. Sorry, did not mean to get too lecturous, my point is you are right about limiting the price, and the playing field should be treated as even, even if it is not.

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:19 am 
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I'm going to jump in on this.

I agree that something has to be done about the "predators" both adult and some of the teens. My sister was conned out of both of the spinners available for plastic. She also had several other sought after pins and was conned out of them as well. I was upset and she was too when I told her that they were valuable. Conning a 10 year old or anyone else for that matter is wrong and hurts.

So, yeah I think something should be done. It isn't the fun that it should be. More like a competition or something.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:11 am 
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As in all things education is of great value. We tried to set up a class in how to trade pins to teach our group the relative value of the various pins at FoF. There are still people that can make a child believe in what they are saying that can talk a young person out of a good pin that they really wanted to keep.

At Friendship Camporee I was in charge of 4 eight year old PITs (Pathfinders In Training or Staff Children) These 4 boys were trading in only plastic pins and buttons and adults still wanted to take advantage of them, but there was a level in the pin trading event that was open to them. I was not really fond of pin trading at this point in time. The gold Bermuda flag pin was the hot pin which I bought at a garage sale years later.

At Dare to Care, plastic pins could almost not be traded. I had an experience with one of my Pathfinders who just wanted to sit in camp and do nothing. I took him out into the Camporee and started trading pins with/for him and he got hooked on pins. From that point on, he was a different Pathfinder and wanted to be part of what was going on. Pin trading became useful to me because it solved a problem I was having. This Pathfinder ended up with more pins than the rest of the club combined. I have a couple of special pins from that Camporee in my collection that are very special because of the stories that goes with them.

For Discover the Power, I was challenged by our Conference Youth Director to design a pin that would make our Conference Pathfinders the people to go to for the hot pins. For this Camporee, the ARKLA members had the first Pathfinder puzzle set (white AR and LA state pins with a Pathfinder logo) and the first Pathfinder blinking light pins (airplane set) at a Camporee. The pin trading excitment was high in our part of the campground.

At Faith on Fire, the rest of the world caught up and there were puzzle, flashing lights, and the new spinner to choose from. The only problem came back to the reason for starting this forum thread. We left the children out of the event.

Please talk to all the Pathfinder Leadership personnel you come in contact with that we need to make the pin trading accessible to the youth again.



For His kids,

Michael Salzman
ARKLA Pathfinder Adventurer Council Chair

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:48 pm 
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I truly don't understand the mentality that went behind "pin trading" in the first place. Hasn't this become a glorified form of coveting? We need to be careful of the lessons we teach our youth. The lesson my Pathfinders learned was that the longer they waited, the more money they could make selling their pins.

Yep. I said selling their pins.

One young man sold one of his spinners for $60. I'm not kidding. I know it sounds outrageous, and indeed, it is. Had I known what he was doing, I would have put a stop to it. Unfortunately, this young man was not under my direct supervision--he was to have been looked after by one of the Directors.

Trading these pins has gotten really bad, folks. It is a great thing to get these young people to socialize with one another, but the pins are not the answer. Instead of the mind-set of wanting to meet other people, our Pathfinders had the mind-set of shopping scavengers--constantly seeking to find the next bargain available to them. Then, when returning to their own camp, they compared their finds with one another and bragged about who got the better deal.

This is a part of Pathfindering that truly needs to be reconsidered, and yes, regulated.

Regulation is not an evil thing. It is a good thing in its proper place. This is one of those places.

Christine "Chrys" Wall
St. Louis, MO


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:33 pm 
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I'm starting early on expanding my trading collection. Avon is selling these great pins "Heart of Asia", for $4.00 each. All profits go to helping tsunami victims, so you get a great looking pin(well made I must say) as well as helping someone else besides yourself. I picked up 2.

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 Post subject: A Pin Trading Concept
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:15 pm 
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I agree that the pin trading has evolved from a way to meet new friends into something that at times can border on cut throat competions for obtaining pins. I don't have an answer, but I found at this last camporee that I quickly grew tired of "bargaining" for pins. My concept was that if you have a pin from your club, that we exchange so that we both have a memory for the camporee. I have pin traded at Dare to Care and Discover the Power, but I quickly tired of pin trading this time.

SO I decided to give my pins away, and I started talking to people and finding out where they were from and then I just gave them a pin. I honestly will tell you that I felt better, because I had fun meeting new people and it was fun seeing the surprised look on their face. I think I'm going to be doing this again in the future, because, as a result I gained lots of new pathfinder friends, and my new friends would track me down and give me pins in return! So in the end, while I may have given away more pins than I received, I got all the pins that I wanted !!

I know this won't work for pathfinders because it costs for pins, but I got much more enjoyment giving than trading.

Check out this website and see if you club or confence pins are on there:
http://www.PathfinderPins.com no buying, no selling, just pictures of pathfinder pins from different camporees, so pathfinders can enjoy seeing their memories.

See ya'll at the next camporee
Juan Flores, Oklahoma Conference

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:24 am 
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I have been thinking about how to get more interaction between our Pathfinders at the large Camporees. Pin trading has been touted as one way to do this, but has led to some trouble. The specification pin for each Conference was an idea to help with the problem.

At an EAA fly-in I attended a few years ago, one of the flight instrument companies gave out buttons. These buttons had advertising on them to promote the company. These buttons also had numbers on them. There were several buttons that had the same number. If you could find a person with the same number on their button as yours, you would go to the company’s location on the campground and claim a prize. I understand that if you could put together three people with the same number, they were giving each of the three individuals a hand held GPS.

What these numbered buttons did was to have people at the Fly-in asking everyone they came in contact with if they had visited the instrument company, and if so what their number was in hopes of finding a matching button. Along the way, I was asked and asked people, where they were from and what kind of airplane they flew, etc.

Could this numbered button idea be used to get our Pathfinders to interact with each other? Maybe the wrist bands could be numbered. Maybe the cost to do this would be minimal. I realize that there will be the group that will just run from person to person for numbers, but some of us would take the time to talk before checking the number. Prizes would be souvenir of the Camporee that could only be gotten by matching numbers.



Mr. Mike

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 Post subject: My experence
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:44 am 
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When trading pins at DTP and FOF I specifically targeted the youngest of kids. Now before you condemn me read why. I looked for those that looked down and sad. I traded my two-inch Pathfinder 50th Anniversary enamel pins for their plastic and paste! I looked for the cheapest pin and made sure that they wanted to trade. Sometimes they would be attached to the most unlikely pins. You should see their eyes light up when they realized they could make a good trade and it made them feel great! Oh and me too!!! Yes I lost the money I invested on the "good pins" but I was investing in something better - Our kids. I encourage you to try it just once. You can’t stop at just one!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:27 pm 
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Yeah, preach it brother!

Some can build up treasures on their pockets/hats, you're building up "treasure in heaven." Very cool.

Mark O'Ffill

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:36 am 
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Oh, that everyone would trade like Lonnyn.
Then there would not be the problem talked about in this thread :!: :!:

Mr. Mike

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