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Would you like to see the next International Camporee out west?
I cannot imagine better than Oshkosh 26%  26%  [ 15 ]
I'd like someplace more primitive - real camping 7%  7%  [ 4 ]
I dunno, but I'm tired of the inland weather extremes 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Let's try Colorado again 10%  10%  [ 6 ]
Anywhere else is just fine - we need a change 10%  10%  [ 6 ]
Somewhere in the Southeast 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Somewhere in the Northeast 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Somewhere in the Northwest 14%  14%  [ 8 ]
Somewhere in the Southwest 7%  7%  [ 4 ]
Let's just go for the middle, to shorten travel 19%  19%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 58
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:56 pm 
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How many of you would like to see it out west, instead of back east?

And could someone who understands how things come to be...

Explain the following...

Under who's authority is the IC put on?

Who sponsors the initial work on the camporee?

What kind of budget do they work from?

How are the people who ultimately are the executives in charge come to hold those positions?

I'm not interested in starting ANY argument or bashfest here, I'm just curious about how these things came to be, and how they are organized. I'm just confused about the process.

Thanks

Mark


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:57 pm 
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I can not answer all of your questions. Maybe Mark O. can invite Ps. Director Black to address the matter in more detail (or another committee member).

Truthfully the Camporees you have known as international are not. That is in the sense that they are put on by the General Conference or a committee representing multiple divisions. Starting with the NAD 1985 camporee such events are sponsored by the various divisions they take place in - so they are Division Camporees. All Pathfinders who can make the trip are welcome regardless of the location they come from as we often invite other clubs and areas to our more localized events.

The division puts together a committee, they represent people who are skilled in Pathfinder events and planning, NAD also hires proffessional event coordinators to assist with the operation. This is neccessary from a logistics and Quartermaster's aspect. Specific attractions, guests, and events are choosen or approved by the committee. The NAD Pathfinder Committee has appointed a location search committee that is already at work. You can find more about this at the NAD youth ministry site.

In North America some funds for Pathfinders at the division level come from the use of an old friend, the Kellogg Company. They have an ongoing (at least for now) fundraiser available for all of us to participate in for NAD - their used to be information on that on this site, I have not checked yet to see if it made it over. Additional funds are provided through tithe distribution to the youth department and GC funds are, from time to time, put in to large endeavors if they will be of wide benefit. Like all events your estimates of how many people will attend and how much it will cost creates a registration fee that is planned to offset all of the expenses and return the entire budget to 0 (for non-profit and charity non fundraising events).

Pathfinder representation to NAD is made up in-part by the Union Directors or Union appointees in their abscense (or if the Union does not have a Director), and other elected members. People such as Director Black and Elder Middag are part of such endeavors emerritus (by virtue of position). Elder Middag being the predecessor to Ps. Black at NAD and was and has been pivotal in bringing about many of our current standards.

Currently Osh Kosh has been the choice due its available size. You do not want a summer camporee in the Southwest trust me I am here and always have been. For those too young, by the way, it actually snowed one day at Camp Hale while we were there in June. I do not know if Camp Hale still exists or if it is a resort now. A western venue would be nice, lots of expense has been borne by western clubs that has not been borne by the midwest or east in travel over the last couple of events.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:30 pm 
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I have enjoyed the time we have spent at Oshkosh and I can see how the GC would want to hold it there again due to availablity and size. But I also agree that we should try to move it around. While all pathfinders are invited, not everyone has the money or resources to make it. I realize we can not please everyone, but moving it around would make it more fair to the clubs that are thousands of miles away from Oshkosh. I think the Northwest is very beautiful and with all the land up there I can not see how we wouldn't find a location with just as much space. I would like to see it happen in the Northwest the next time.

DirectorMoore


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:57 pm 
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While different locations might be nice, the problem is that there are only a handful of places that are big enough to hold 30,000+ campers.
Dare to Care was way to crowded.
Friendship was large enough, but did not have the bathroom facilities required.

Texas in August :roll: - Don't go there. 100 degrees during the day and 85 degrees at night. No thanks. Most of the south has this problem.

Need something equal distance from both coasts with a chance for good weather. Oshkosh is a good choice.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:59 pm 
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Hmm . . . I would love to have it somewhere in the Southwest if we can find a place with suitable weather and facilities, I don't know if that is possible though. I loved the OshKosh facilities, how Walmart and everything else was so close. I like camping, but with that many people in one spot you need to have quick access to modern facilities. I mean, these camporees are not like we are trying to get the backpacking honor - OshKosh is great, and if a comparable spoke can be found somewhere else than great too. If not, then keep it at OshKosh.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:37 am 
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I honestly don't mind traveling, (guess what? I'm from Wisconsin), but I was at Camp Hale, and the showers alone make Oshkosh hard to beat. A new location holds some appeal as we would get to see some differant local sites. I'll tell you though, I have never seen weather so cold in August as we had this past year. I plan to be at the next Camporee where ever it is though, so look me up, I"ll be wearing a smile, and corraling a passel of kids.
Chelly


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:14 am 
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I went to Camp Hale and Oshkosh 2 times. It was OK at Oshkosh. I must say the showers are nothing to write home about at Oshkosh unless you like to take a shower with a kitchen sprayer in an ice house, but they sure were better than the ones at Camp Hale's ICE water! (there I had a solar shower.)

We had “kids” (now teen counselors) who went to both Oshkosh events. At times it was hard to get them to goto the same events they went to in 99. (obstacle course for example).

I think it is best to move this event around, but the planning and logistics of doing this are an issue to be considered in the decision.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:08 am 
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I have done a lot of camping over the years and find it hard to beat the facilities found at Oshkosh. I would love to go somewhere else if we can have the space and facilities we have at Oshkosh or better. After the 2004 camporee we can see tht it is continueing to grow, and so is the ministry, so we must at least give all those that want to attend a decent place to camp. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:49 pm 
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I have now had a couple conversations with our leaders here in the UCC, and they would love to have it here... BUT (and there's always a huge catch) our conference does NOT have the ability to sponsor these things, nor the staff to do the work to put one on.

I don't understand why it should be ANY conference that does the work. How could we expect them to?

There is a campground - a REAL campground in Idaho, called Farragut State Park, that's large enough. A lake, all the space you need, but "town" is about 15-20 miles away. Is it large enough? The boys and girls scouts have both had jamborees there with TENS of thousands of people.

I have lived nearby, and the weather in August can't be beat anywhere in the world. It rarely has a rainstorm, it's NOT humid (20% humidity at most), there are no tornados and the bugs are few.

http://www.idahoparks.org/parks/farragut.html

http://www.llbean.com/parksearch/parks/html/748lls.htm

http://www.ohwy.com/id/f/farraisp.htm

http://www.northidahotrails.net/Farragut.htm#

After you look at those links, you GOTTA know that Farragut would be one of the finest places we could imagine for a week's camping.

It doesn't have showers, but they can be brought in. It doesn't have 5 minute away WalMart, but Walmart isn't that far. About 20 minutes by GOOD highway is Couer D'Alene, which has every store you could want, and Spokane has a good airport, and and is well under 2 hours.

In the area is an awesome kid's theme park, water park, hiking, biking, climbing, swimming, boating, and every other kind of outdoor activity. All of these are no more than a half hour away. And the scenery is awesome. Cool nights, warm days, awesome sunsets, twilight till 10PM, air that smells like pines and firs, and wildlife all over.

There would be a huge amount of space, and basically no problems with gangs, outside people infiltrating for bad ends, or crime.

Basically, I think after we return to this earth from going to Heaven... I'm looking for someplace like northern Idaho to live out eternity :)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:27 pm 
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Hmm, how do we go about suggesting it to the Center for Youth Evangelism? Aren't they the ones in charge of the whole thing?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:33 am 
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To suggest it you will contact the NAD Pathfinder Committee, through the Director's Office. The Director is Elder James Black, you can contact them through -

cloveth.smith@nad.adventist.org

She is the department asssistant and can forward the information.

The Center for Youth Evangelism is headed by Elder Ron Whitehead who is a member of the Pathfinder Committee, and was charged with promoting the Camporee (and I think Coordinating it). There is a camp selection committee and they will make the recommendation to the Committee as to where the NAD Camporee will be held. They last met in April, I beleive.

No single Conference bears the responsibilty for this event and so fairness to a conference does not come into play. Their knowledge may be used (local resources and geography) but as you can read in this forum NAD plans and sponsors the event.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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 Post subject: Hmmm
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:20 pm 
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You know - Oshkosh really is hard to beat. But I think in 2009(if we're on earth that long) we will have to find a bigger place. Oshkosh this time was just about filled to maximum! If they did move the site, it would have to have more showers, portapotties, and smooth terrain. It would definatly have to be bigger! God will bless, as He has every single camporee. I know it takes much work to put on one of these camporees, and I personally think they have done a wonderful job this time.I was at DTP in 99 and FOF definatly beat this one. If you get a chance - our club was featured in the "It could be you" Saturday night. We're in the purple shirts with a sunburst and "SonSeekers" written on the front.

Happy Trails!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:43 pm 
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Cool, I'll check out the video!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:35 am 
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A correction, I am wrong from time to time. It has come to my attention that the Site Selection committee has not met yet for the 2009 NAD Camporee. As of Feb 04 they have not visited any sites for condsideration.


Remeber if you are thinking of a place you like it has to be able to camp 60 - 80k people. This includes Pathfinders, Staff, Event Staff, and guests. Areas that used to be Military bases ( WW II era) such as Farragut or Camphale are most likely to be large enough. Most National Parks have conservation issues, so size is not relative, they exclude the establishment of large cities.

Not only will there be that many people but Civil Affairs are needed. This is not WalMart. This is Fresh water, showers, portolets, an infirmery or even urgent care center w/ ambulance for on site and one for interfacility, security, event staff parking, and support.

When considering such planning imagine these things: You are Moses and have to set up camp in the wilderness for 2M people (even latrines are in Deut.); You are a General and have to move, house, keep sanitary, and feed a large army; You are the Bureau Cheif for ADRA in indonesia on Dec. 26 2004 and you have to work with the Local Provincial Government, IFRC (Red Cross), and the Salvation Army, to house 100,000 people and try to feed them, tend their wounds, and avoid pestilence.

Planning such an event is logistically difficult and time consuming. A city close by is nice, but what is it costing you? By no good math I can come up with is it cheaper to fly from 2000 miles away and buy all of your needs when you arrive then throw them away after. Then when there is a problem and a club needs a tent because one broke or tore there are none to be had because every store in town is sold out (true story). Maybe we should get REI and ADRA to sponsor the next event (sort of joking there). The NAD has done an incredible job every time, nothing is perfect and some services can always be improved, but; there has been no epidemic, that is impresive when you consider just what that requires to avoid when camping that many people.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:02 pm 
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fish wrote:
A correction, I am wrong from time to time. It has come to my attention that the Site Selection committee has not met yet for the 2009 NAD Camporee. As of Feb 04 they have not visited any sites for condsideration.


Remeber if you are thinking of a place you like it has to be able to camp 60 - 80k people. This includes Pathfinders, Staff, Event Staff, and guests. Areas that used to be Military bases ( WW II era) such as Farragut or Camphale are most likely to be large enough. Most National Parks have conservation issues, so size is not relative, they exclude the establishment of large cities.

Not only will there be that many people but Civil Affairs are needed. This is not WalMart. This is Fresh water, showers, portolets, an infirmery or even urgent care center w/ ambulance for on site and one for interfacility, security, event staff parking, and support.

When considering such planning imagine these things: You are Moses and have to set up camp in the wilderness for 2M people (even latrines are in Deut.); You are a General and have to move, house, keep sanitary, and feed a large army; You are the Bureau Cheif for ADRA in indonesia on Dec. 26 2004 and you have to work with the Local Provincial Government, IFRC (Red Cross), and the Salvation Army, to house 100,000 people and try to feed them, tend their wounds, and avoid pestilence.

Planning such an event is logistically difficult and time consuming. A city close by is nice, but what is it costing you? By no good math I can come up with is it cheaper to fly from 2000 miles away and buy all of your needs when you arrive then throw them away after. Then when there is a problem and a club needs a tent because one broke or tore there are none to be had because every store in town is sold out (true story). Maybe we should get REI and ADRA to sponsor the next event (sort of joking there). The NAD has done an incredible job every time, nothing is perfect and some services can always be improved, but; there has been no epidemic, that is impresive when you consider just what that requires to avoid when camping that many people.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


Do they REALLY want to try to to camp 60K people?

If they do, I don't want to go to it, no matter where it is.

Discover the Power was dramatically better than FOF in many ways. FOF had better programming in the evening, but DTP didn't feel so strained, especially when it came to traffic, facilities, space, etc.

There are practical limits to certain events. For instance, the meeting area was just too huge to see much. The jumbotrons are cool, but I recall being able to see the stage at DTP.

Further, I'm pretty sure that the farther west you go, the lesser the attendance will be. And, to a small degree, the more orderly it will be.

Pathfinder clubs out west are very heavily unit oriented, highly supervised, and so on. Also, there's a lot less population out west, a lot fewer people here. And, with farther to go, I think fewer clubs would be there.

internationally, I don't think it matters a whit. They would not be affected, except they'd fly in closer, probably, than Chicago was to Oshkosh.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:17 pm 
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If the NAD is looking to hold the Camporee out toward the Western part of the United States, they should look at sites in Montana, such as in and around Glacier National Park. The North Pacific Union held their Union Camporee in the area of the Flathead River in September of 2002. Granted, shower, water, and toilets would have to be brought in, but in years past (many years ago) it was typical for our camporees to be held on forest service land, where such things were trucked in to a site.

Other places could be located in the Western States, and I have a feeling that many clubs from the Pacific Northwest would be more than willing to travel that distance. I have been fortunant enough to have attended both camporees at Oshkosh ('99 and '04) and even attended as a Pathfinder the Camp Hale Camporee in 1985. Many of the clubs in my area decided not to attend Oshkosh primarily because of the long distance for travelling.

But if the NAD decides to hold it at Oshkosh again, I will be making plans to go.

nwpathfinder
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:48 am 
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nwpathfinder wrote:
If the NAD is looking to hold the Camporee out toward the Western part of the United States, they should look at sites in Montana, such as in and around Glacier National Park. The North Pacific Union held their Union Camporee in the area of the Flathead River in September of 2002. Granted, shower, water, and toilets would have to be brought in, but in years past (many years ago) it was typical for our camporees to be held on forest service land, where such things were trucked in to a site.

Other places could be located in the Western States, and I have a feeling that many clubs from the Pacific Northwest would be more than willing to travel that distance. I have been fortunant enough to have attended both camporees at Oshkosh ('99 and '04) and even attended as a Pathfinder the Camp Hale Camporee in 1985. Many of the clubs in my area decided not to attend Oshkosh primarily because of the long distance for travelling.

But if the NAD decides to hold it at Oshkosh again, I will be making plans to go.

nwpathfinder
Fort Vancouver Pathfinders


I was at Going to the Son with our club, too.

We were a brand new club in '02 and that was our very first outing. It had it's ups and downs, but it was a great experience. We did a raft trip down the Flathead, and a windstorm blew us back UP the river...

I'm sure that we'd need space for at least 25K people. I also think that out west we'd have somewhat fewer booths - they'd have to be under tents, rather than in huge buildings.

The pathfinder history display was at Montana, if memory serves.

Still, we need influential people to try to get the bigwigs at the top to listen. I'm sure they're not swayed in the slightest by what I want...


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 Post subject: International Camporees
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:57 am 
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Greetings Mark,

In 1985, the North American Division sponsored and put on the Camp Hale Camporee. In 1989 the Columbia Union took on that responsibility. In 1994-2004, The Center for Youth Evangelism has sponsored and led out in the endeavor (each time with the blessing and indirect involvement of the North American Division). However, the NAD is NOT directly responsible for the International Camporees, since they have not officially sponsored them financially since 1985. However, there is a close relationship and dual support for Pathfinder ministry from both the sponsoring entity and the NAD.

The director for the event is chosen by the sponsoring body. The Site selection is composed from Youth ministry professionals from around the NAD, under the auspices of the sponsoring organization.

Typically, the executive committee is comprised of representatives from each union, there are about 50 members. You can see the list for the last IC at http://www.camporee.org/html/executive_members.htm. The criteria for their selection is listed at http://www.camporee.org/html/executive_ ... iteria.htm :idea:

The downline directors are chosen by the director who chooses them based on their skill sets and his knowledge of how they have worked / can work with a large event.


I hope this answers some of the questions you have. :!: :?:

Mark O'Ffill

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:58 am 
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pathfinders wrote:
Greetings Mark,



The downline directors are chosen by the director who chooses them based on their skill sets and his knowledge of how they have worked / can work with a large event.


I hope this answers some of the questions you have. :!: :?:

Mark O'Ffill


Yeah, Mark, it means YOU are one of those influential people :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:26 pm 
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Has it been decided where the 09 camporee is gonna be held?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:39 pm 
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Not yet (1-14-2005)

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 Post subject: Site for 09
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:58 pm 
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That declaration will likely not be made until this fall or so.

keep track of http://www.camporee.org

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:52 am 
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The last two Camporees at Oshkosh have allowed our club to spend the Sabbath before the Camporee at Battle Creek, MI.
The historical tour that our club members took, brought some of the history of our church alive for them.
The group at Battle Creek do an excellent job.
I for one would not hesitate to go back to Battle Creek if the 09 Camporee were held in Oshkosh.

I understand that over 3000 Pathfinders visited Battle Creek in conjunction with FOF.

Mr. Mike

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:50 pm 
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I have a fear that we might try to hold an International Camporee out in the middle of nowhere.
There must be a good sized city close enough that 30K people will not clean out the grocery stores. It was hard to find certain items at Oshkosh even with the large number of stores there. Our cook was so tired of fighting the crowd near the EAA site that she drove to Appleton to shop.

It was also a problem at Friendship in 1989 with the little towns that were nearby with only about 13K in attendance. We ended up having to go Altoona (about 50 miles) to get laundry done.

Then there was the bus rides at Dare to Care. Also, the homemade showers were terrible. Please lets learn from that mistake. Weather was a factor there as well. The heat was dangerous.

Medical care is also an issue. Need to have full medical facilities.

I will go where the next one is held, but we need to be sure we have the facilities to handle the group.

I vote for the next Camporee to be held where the streets are gold and we can stay and listen to the featured speaker for as long as we like.
I will also want to work on my ARK Building Honor with Noah.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:30 pm 
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If we go there I do not think that stroes or medical facilities will be an issue, and I am behind that 100%.

I have great faith in the committee and I am sure that with God's help they will choose a fine location.

Just in case we are still in the current enviroment I am fully agreed to medical facilities. At Colorado the on site facility was very good. I was possible to load someone onto a stand by ambulance to go to a brick and mortar hospital when neccessary, and a helicopter was near enough for serious emergencies. Of which I am not positive there were any. Who has sponsored the last couple of "Field Hospitals," think Loma Linda and other adventist colleges may be able to round up some volunteer nurses and 3rd year med students?

As to food and the pillaging of a small town that can certianly be a concern when so many clubs have become conditioned to leave home unprepared save a check book and buy everything on site. This phenomena worries me a bit. I have not been to the International camporees that have taken place at Osh Kosh, I have heard many, many first hand stories. Bad timing I suppose on my part, may be next time.

In 1985 we went to Colorado with over 100. We had some new two man dome tents break as a result of weather and were able to repair those poles, in fact, if I recall correctly we had come prepared to preplace a couple if needed but needed more. We took a fifth wheel trailor and our club nurse lived in it and it was our club infirmory ( I have read that no such vehicles are allowed at Osh Kosh for this event, I have a plan B.) and a small moving van was part of our group that contained Quarter Master's Supply and was most of the food storage. I do not recall that our director was left needing to rely on the city; or that anyone else was for that matter. We came prepared as does any group I am managing, you can plan it for the southern desert of Israel if you want, if I go we will be prepared.

I understand the desire to be close to a city, just not the need. Television, video games a pizza place or ice cream palor. A Walmart about to have record sales, it reminds me not of a camporee but of Prescott during Campmeeting. Come to think of it they have trying to turn our campground into a Hilton for about the last 10 years too. A camporee includes camping and although a sanitary environment is appropriate and group events are the purpose I can do happily without a jetway passing over of freeway passing through. Sorry, Mike I do not want to disagree; I just think there is something to be said for expecting our leaders to actually plan for and execute a trip in prepared fashion. I think the comittee is likely to see it your way though; so, is their a place you have come across other than OshKosh that you might throw into the mix?

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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