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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:09 pm 
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I would like to know how many clubs out there do hold their Pathfinder meetings on Sabbath. Let me know what activites are appropriate on Sababth in a church that has absolutley no other activities for the youth.

As a small group we meet on Sabbath for two hours, within that short space of time we accomplish much and the Pathfinders are very productive. We do not drill or do any Arts and Crafts. All else besides the the bible and EG White readings and discussions are held either after sunset or another day!

The board has said that "the Sabbath is a Holy day and we do not do things to desecrate the Sabbath out of convenience. We do not care what other churches are doing that does not make it acceptable." If that is the case why move it to Sunday if most churches do meet on Sundays.
They have not and will not approve any activites unless the day is changed to Sunday and this is a Conference Camporee year. Ugh!!
I am not sure if this is an issues that a newly formed church is not educated about the importance of keeping the young people in the church. Not one of the board members or Pastor has ever visited with the club to see how we are doing or what we actually do. Pathfindering is not about the adults, its about reaching out to the children and having fun. I am not about to get into any church politics over this. I have been a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church for almost twenty five year, grew up in the church attended Adventist institutions from elementary to univeristy had no reason to do anything to desecrate the Sababth. I am flabbergasted at the small mindedness of people and their inability to change despite the need for change if something is not working. Yet they constantly ask why doesn't anybody stay in this church.
I have avoided all the politics in the church so far just always working to the best of my abilities in what ever post I am elected to, and I am not about to start with the politics now, because it is not worth it.

As club staff we cater to the needs of the Pathfinders, they all have their input in what is done. We are now at lost at how Pathfinders the most important inreach activity in our church desecrates the Sabbath. One Pathfinder who is not an SDA goes to her aunts home and selects whatever EG White readings she likes that is outside the class cirrculum and reads it..her aunt even says now she is at peace despite what havoc might be in her home life. Even that in itself, the peace that a child has and what that child does, is it not one way to reach that unsaved parent? Is that not evangelism if that parent comes to know the Lord through their child?

As staff we don't mind having club on Sunday's, however the club is small and unless we see some committment from the parents in bringing the Pathfinders on Sunday ,it will not be worth it for the Pathfinders or the directors. Support should not only be financial, but in bodies. Our club needs lots of prayer and council as the parents will be meeting with the board next Sabbath. Thanks in advance for the sound advise you have given in the pass and do continue to impart.


Last edited by bellenicci on Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:30 am 
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I have a question or two if you do not mind.

What time does your meeting start?

Can you start at 7pm or 7:30 to satisfy the board?

Have you been given any specific complaint of a specific activity?

This is potentially one of the ugliest things that can happen in any church. The idea that someone or some ministry in the church is participating in activity inappropriate for the Sabbath (whatever day they see it as). There are recommendations to have certian church meetings on the Sabbath including staff training meetings, not specifically included is the actual Pathfinder meeting and the Staff Manual's sample meetings are evening meetings. At the Glendale SDA Church here in Arizona the club meets every Wed. night, but on one Sabbath each month they have an Honors Sabbath where the club meets to work on honors during Sabbath Afternoon.

What is and is not appropriate depends on the beliefs of those involved. I remember a Pastor from my teen years telling me of a church in New Jersey or New York (as I recall) where many of the Members live(d) on the other side of a toll bridge from the church. As a result they would come across the bridge Friday afternoon and stay at a near by park then go to the park and wait for the sun to set Sabbath to go home. They did not cross on the Sabbath because to pay the toll would be causing someone to work on the Sabbath, on the other hand; I know MANY Adventists who leave church and go straight to a local resturaunt. Short of specifically being desiganted acceptable (or not) by the General Conference or a Division of GC anything is up for debate as to its acceptance, save those items spelled out in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. These writings pre-date Pathfinders by some 2700 years, so the activities you engage in may not be spelled out in detail - some may apply.

There is a standard that, in my perspective, should apply here. Although you are not being "disciplined" by the church the same standard of accusation should apply. Christ was crusified on vague accusations, as a church we stand against the practice of non-specific or trivial claims. This is explained to an extent in the Church Manual begining on page 175 and the standard is seen again in pages 147-148 on objecting to nominations of officers. I think (and my copy is gone) the NAD Working Policy spells these standards out in even more detail for members and Pastors.

I think this should apply because short of theological (religious fact) that an activity of the Pathfinder Club is not being held to the glory of God and the fulfillment of the purpose, objectives, and the Aim and Motto of the Pathfinder Club (and AYS and AJY Societies) of the Seventh-day Adventist Church then it is indeed an appropriate activity for any day of the week including the Sabbath. Christ ministered on the Sabbath, obtained food on the Sabbath, and was oft challenged for His activity on the Sabbath. He was never wrong, and tradition does not superscede the moral absolutes of GOD.

"The Pathfinder club meeting reflects the spiritual objectives of the Pathfinder club." p.53 Pathfinder Staff Manual 1998.

Quote:
Objectives of Pathfindering

The Pathfinder club will encourage its members to belong to the church, confess their Christian faith, and take active part in fellowship, worship, outreach, and service.
The Pathfinder club will involve its members as full partners in all aspects of the church's ministry to its members, to the community, and to the world.
The Pathfinder club will challange its members in the mission and ministry of Christ through the church so that God's Word becomes meaningful and fruitful in their lives. p.9 Pathfinder Staff Manual 1998


What of things things desicrates the Sabbath of the Living God, Whom it so diligently serves?

The AY Aim: "The Advent message to all the world in this generation."

The AY Motto: "The love of Christ constraineth us."

I am opposed to some activities that groups find to do on the Sabbath; but if the purpose is to minister to the youth, ministry by the youth, educate the youth in the natural world God gave us, or to worship then I can see no desictration in it.

In Christ's Love,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International

p.s. You need to speak to God and three people this week. The people are: your Conference Youth Director, Conference Pathfinder Director, and Conference Ministerial Director. These people will be able to help you find a definitive answer where your Local Conference is concerned.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Thank you. Our club started May 2004. There has been no specific activity that has been pointed out as descerating the Sabbath. Activities conducted on the Sabbath so far s the Class work as set out by Pathfinder classwork, a few honors. Nursing Home visitation, Other Pathfinder Club Induction and Investitures, plus our own. We no longer drill since the Drill Master just up and left asked why "there is too many things on Sabbath", We have delivered Pathfinder handbills to invite people in the community to join the club. Guest speakers from the Pathfinder council to talk about how the Pathfinders and parents can be more involved in club as per requirement in the clas work. An SDA Police officer has visited to speak on the importance of the law esp the Pathfinder pledge and law as well as the 10 commandments, and the importance of being good citizens as per requirements under good citizenship for Explores, Rangers ad Voyagers. I have now scheduled the Pathfinders to be more active in church life by taking part in the Divine service by doing the call to worship and the children story. Otherwise they would sit in church from Sabbath to Sabbath with nothing else to do but watch the same set of people every Sabbath conduct the preliminaries. Club start at 3p and finish at 5p. The associate director has suggested starting after sunset. I have no problems with that. But again some parent says its already too long of a day for those who are coming from far. I contacted my District Co-ordinator and she has contacted the Conference Youth Director (CYD) who is also the Pathfinder Director. The First Elder at the church will also be contacting the (CYD). These are the steps that has currently been taken.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:28 pm 
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I am not in a position to provide a formal statement for the Seventh-day Adventist church. As an individual Adventist I find no offense or desicration in the activities you have listed in your posts.

I am sure some of the other members of this forum will make comment and I am confident in saying that you will find a largely supportive community here with some varying ideas and perspectives. It sounds to me that you are doing all you should be doing and that the church Elders are doing what they should be doing. It is important that issues of concern be addressed and it is not at all far fetched that a church would want to give close scrutiny to any youth activity. The vision that will come to some people's minds with such activities is that they are doing things that do not glorify God that they do not keep the Sabbath. Careful consideration should be given and the final standing made public, if you gain the support of the Church Board, including the Elders and Pastor, you will have a more successful club because you will have the true support of the church. Since you are reaching out to the conference as is the Elder, the position of the conference is likely to be reflected in the final descision. With God's help and Will, things will work out as they should.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:52 pm 
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I don't doubt the need to watch Youth activity. But the first Elders wife is a part of it and he himself has said its a good thing and will be coming to share next week the things he has learnt at a lifestyle centre. And the church board has had the opportunity to approve each and every activity that the club engages in. They approved them all. The Parents have been with us on our Sunday outing to the Butterfly conservatory, they have engaged in the Bread dough making honor and games night that the elder himself has initiated. So then what is the problem? Could it be that they do not appreciate the drum corp that plays for the processional and recessional on Induction, PF Day and Investiture Service. THey do not have any afternoon activities so these two were done during the divine service last year. There were no other provisions made my the church to accomodate us. Please do keep out club in your prayer and waht ever the outcome I hope it is something the children can accept because it is them that will feel the lost more if this is done away with. Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:58 am 
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Our club meets on Tueday nights, but I have taught nature honors on Sabbath for years. At one time, I had a group that would go on hikes in the neighborhood with me as we collected tree leaves, looked for inspects, watch birds, etc. as we walked along. Sabbath afternoons in the summer can be very long for a young person.

Honors were taught at Oshkosh Sabbath afternoon. Most of the Conference Camporees I have helped with have had a self taught nature honor on Sabbath afternoon. Doing the Pathfinder reading requirements on a Sabbath afternoon is certainly right on. The outreach activities that were listed sounded wonderful. I don't believe the only approved Sabbath afternoon activity should be a long nap.

I love the "scheduling of the Pathfinders to be more active in church life by taking part in the Divine service". Please keep doing that part as a minimum. All to often, those in charge want the youth to set in the pews until they are 30 something and then suddlenly want them to help out. The problem is they went out the back door long before they came "of age" or they don't have the skills to help if they have managed to stay.

As I read this thread, I wondered what happens on Pathfinder Sabbath or even if that activity/requirement takes place.

My prayers are with you and I have faith that this will work out for good.


Mr. Mike

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:20 am 
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This is what took place for Induction and PF day and Investiture

Induction-June 11-11am-1pm
Procession
O Canada, Pledge, Law, Aim and Motto, Pathfinder song
Welcome
Pathfinder Promotion
Song Service
Opening Song
Scripture
Prayer
Special Music
Semonette
Induction Ceremony
Special Music
Guidance talk
Special
Benediction
Procession


On Pathfinder Day and Investiture Dec 1110:50am-12:40pm
Sabbath School
Song Service
Opening Song
Welcome/Opening Remarks
Scripture & Prayer
Special Music
LESSON STUDY-
closing Prayer

Divine Service
Processional
O Canada, Pledge, Law, Aim and Motto, Pathfinder song
Opening Prayer
Post Colors
Welcome
Pathfinder Report
INVESTITURE
Certification and Charge of Masterguide candidate
Consecration and Prayer of Dedication
Certification of Pathfinder Candidates and Honors Earned(knot tying demo)
Charge to Pathfinder
Consecration and Prayer of Dedication
Song of Consecration
Pathfinder of the Year Award
Special Presentations (than you to Pastor 1st Elder and one male who helped with camping


Call to Worship
Praise & Worship
Lead Song
Worship Focus
Time in Prayer
Children Story
Music of Meditation


Sermonnette-Conf Youth & PF Director
Closing Song
Thank you
Benediction
Announcements
Recessional


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:59 am 
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I wish I had the time to do all of those things in our Induction and PF Day :!: :!:

I would hope the Saints did not have a problem with your services. If so I hope they were specific about what they were not happy with so that a compromise could be worked out for the next time.

Mr. Mike

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:07 pm 
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Please advise how I can obtain a NAD Operating Policy Manual. Is there an electronic copy I can download at http://www.adventist.org???
Thank you.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:38 pm 
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There was a GC copy on the internet, I could not find it the other day. Normally you will get it through your ABC, this is usually a special order item printed by Review and Herald. Most employees and Pastors have one or their office does. It is likely your church or a neighboring church or your Youth Director has one you could borrow if the ABC does not have one instock.

That list of PF Day and Induction activities sound great, wow; good job.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:48 pm 
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Thanks please advise who these people are and how they can be contacted.

Wayne Hicks, UCC, Mark O'fill, and Gordon Pifer. The names all sound very familar but I need a reminder. Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:57 pm 
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Pastor Mark O'Ffill can be contacted by sending email to the administrator of this web site or by sending a message to 'pathfinders' on the member list. He is the administrator of this site and Camporee.org amongst other things.

The others I do not have any contact information on off hand.

Chris Fishell


Last edited by fish on Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:00 am 
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In the book the Pathfinder Story, did the boys not encounter the issue that this club now face?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:38 pm 
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Elder Wayne Hicks is the UCC Pathfinder/Family Life Director

Mr./Elder Gordon E. Pifher is the Secretary of the UCC

Both I am quite certian reachable through the Upper Columbia Conference office. Conatct information at http://www.uccsda.org

God Bless,

Chris Fishell


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:47 pm 
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Mark O'Ffill here: my email address is webmaster@pathfindersonline.org

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:16 am 
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Have you come to resolution on this issue with your club at this point? If so, would love to hear what you did. If not, what have you encountered to this point?

Blessings, :)

Mark O'Ffill

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:29 am 
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Well, first does anyone know what the difference is between a regular Seventh-day Adventist Church and a Company :?: :!:

Most of the issues could have been resolved had there been just simple communication on the actitivity in question...the braiding honor some members saw the PF doing the hangers which leads up to the Lanyard-which is part of the uniform(the only Arts and Craft activity ever done). We did recieve the ok from the District Co-ordinator to start this honors she was even present on that day.

There are still some issues that needs to be resolved, however as per the meeting with the Parents and the church board, we are allowed to continue to hold PF Meetings on Sabbath and other activities on another day. They passes a motion that there should be no no non-Sabbath activities, Arts and Carfts, Drilling and marching on Sabbath. Which brings up alot of question because Non-Sababth activities will depend on individual beliefs. On Pathfinder(Sabbath) days we have to practice formation and march into the church. Arts and Craft I have no issues with.

As for me I have resigned as the Director because of the way this issues was approached-no tact or diplomacy and also because I am not a member of this congregation. They would like me to transfer my membership however that is not now my desire. I feel aweful about this situtation because it has made the PF VERY SAD. :cry: :( :cry: I have however given them options of other clubs in the District if a Director is not found. There are two Masterguides that are members of this congregation however I don't think any of them are willing to take on the challenge. I have made it clear however that I am willing to help out as needed, but I will not be the Director. Please keep this congregation and the club in your prayers.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:15 am 
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I'm sorry that it has come to this conclusion.

Its also sad that the congregation seems to not with to "call the Sabbath a delight. . ." as scripture advises us to.

Mark O'Ffill

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:16 am 
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Some asked earlier in this thread about the official church stance on Sabbath/Sunday activities for Pathfinders.

This is the response from our NAD Pathfinder Ministries Director James Black:

There is no official position on this, however I have to remind the
church that Pathfinders is an official "Ministry" within the church.
Some sees it as a picnic so this is what raises the the question. Every
camporee and leadership experience involves Sabbath meeting time.

PJB

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:21 am 
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For me Sabbath has always been a delight.... in this church however ALL activities are from 10a-12pm...at our Parents meeting the Pastor quoted Is 58:13 emphasis placed on
doing thy own pleasure and ride upon the high places of the earth(meaning riches)...now there are two different interpretation of this verse....go figure

13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

In the church manual pg 107 it states that: " In many local churches Pathfinder Clubs have replaced the traditional Adventist Junior Youth Society," in my understanding AY is usually on Sabbath not Sunday.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:39 pm 
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It is unfortunate when true joy and worship are slighted by tradition and arrogant piety.

Nothing worng with peity of course, it is absolutely proper in itself.

Start up churches (usually under 100 and not yet made formal by the Executive Committee of the Local Conference) are often called "companies" Church Manual pp.39-40. "Chruches" normally have one or more full-time paid Ordained Pastors verses Elders or Credentialed Ministers. It is just a technical description territory vs. State.

Christ spent much of His teaching reminding us that tradition and vain judgements are dangerous to us. Mark 2:27 (I am sure I wrote this here before) "The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath." God wants our attention and wants us to remain strong, the Sabbath is that time when our family, friends, bretheren... come to together to learn and share, to fellowship and rejoice, and to be free of the burdens we carry - to seek strength in God. Many things are proper on the Sabbath many are not; you are absolutely correct in saying defining that is hard because it centers on personal belief. Too bad more people do not spend time studying the issue for themselves.

The outcome is truly unfortunate for you and them, I will pray for them and for you. I hope you will be led soon, to a place where you can continue your ministry with Pathfinders and that this congregation can find peace as well.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:39 pm 
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My husband and I are codirectors of a 12-member club in Maryland. In our first year of directing, we met two Sabbaths and one Sunday a month. On Sabbaths, we worked at our AY classwork, focusing on the Bible- and nature-related items. Much of the classwork can be done on Sabbath.

We also worked on two nature honors. Our church is supportive and our parents are, too. I know of families that work on honors in their homes as a Sabbath afternoon activity.

We felt that as long as we kept the focus on a Sabbath atmosphere, we were offering something for children to do on Sabbath afternoon, as well as accomplishing the honors and classwork.

That schedule was to accommodate staff members' working hours during the week. While we felt it was effective, we did not keep that schedule so that we could have weekends with our families. We also were able to work on different honors the next year on Wednesday nights.

I am sorry to read that you resigned. But, if you don't have the support of your church, it is almost impossible to do the job. All the best!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:47 am 
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*hugs*

Sorry to hear that you're having this type of conflict. It makes me grateful to be in a church that bends over backwards to support our pathfinders. We're in the process of becoming a company. The difference is, a company is not an "official church" they function as an official church, and have most of the same rights EXCEPT... that because usually numbers of members and finances and such, they are not their own entity, and must rely on the leadership and advisement of a "mother church."

simply, a company is a form of a church plant, that's been growing.

We have meetings on Sabbath almost every week. Nothing huge and major, but we do have meetings. Some of them were used to prepare for Bible Bowl, some of them were used to go over Nature object lessons such as... Nature Study for the Friend Class about the stories of the lost sheep. There's MANY Sabbath afternoon activities that can be conducted. Maybe go take a walk, and look for different birds. One Sabbath afternoon, we drove around for a few hours, and found 24 of the 30 birds for the Birds Honor.

We have not done the Braiding Honor on sabbath, as it is an Arts and Crafts honor. We didn't want to cause any kind of conflict with that, so what we did is during the winter months when the days are shorter, we'd have a "Pathfinder Day." And we'd work on honor stuff during the Sabbath, have a vespers service, maybe at someone's house, and then have a movie night. We'd watch some movie, have popcorn, and have all the kids sit around and work on their hangars and lanyards. In the span of a movie, you can easily get the hangar done.

I just encourage you to keep on meeting with the Pathfinders, and try to find some kind of middle ground that you can agree what certain things will be, and will not be taught during the Sabbath hours. If you're a company, they may be concerned that the mother church will take offense to what you're doing, and cause problems. Ask if that's the case, and speak to the mother church about it if it is... If the mother church has no Pathfinder club, invite them to join yours (if possible due to staff shortages). The more the merrier (with staff).

Good luck with this, and we'll keep you in prayers

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Phillip Bautista - Director
Madera International Ambassadors - 2004
Area 7 Pathfinder Club
Central California Conference


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:26 pm 
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U know what... something just flashed on me. And you could take (or show) it to your church board members that have question with your activities on Sabbath if they're appropriate or not.

http://www.camporee.org/fof-camporee/si ... firmed.pdf

That's the list from the FOF Camporee on which honors were taught... AND WHICH HONORS WERE OPEN ON SABBATH If you're looking for a guideline to follow in regards to activities... look no further. I'm sure it was a decision by a number of Adventist Pathfinder Leaders, most of them pastors that determined which were appropriate for teaching on Sabbath. They're Pathfinder experts, and know what would be proper and what would not be proper for Sabbath events ;) And if your church board would still have questions... Direct them to the Camporee planners and organizers for answers. :D

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Madera International Ambassadors - 2004
Area 7 Pathfinder Club
Central California Conference


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:40 pm 
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I am happy to share that I will now be helping out some other clubs in my district. Hopefully I can get some of the previous PF from my other club to join one of tthe wo clubs so they don't miss out on this wonderful ministry in the adventist church that focus is for children. Thank you all for all your responses, advice and prayers. The Lord is working.


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