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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:26 pm 
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Location: Keene, Texas (Fort Worth Area)
The rules for the sash are as follows from this website:

Sash - Black, with length no longer than the tip of the fingers on the left hand.

My questions are these: May a wider sash be made that is four wide if a current three wide sash is full?

What do you do when a three wide sash is FULL when you have additional honors and patches to sew on?

My wife and I are exploring making a new black sash four wide and we were wondering if there was any rule against making a wider sash. Please let us know.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:52 pm 
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Alan, NAD has no specific rule against it.

When I was a kid a lot of the Master Guide Deans had four wide sashes, that was green of course. A few had vests but that way exceptionally rare.

Does you conference have a subset or more specific set of guidelines? I ask because not all conferences follow NAD strictly and the result is an occasional inspection problem based on advice received from else where like here.

I have had two sashes since I was a teen. They are oriented to go across eachother, mine are three wide and I never where them anymore unless the kids ask me to. If you are a Master Guide in a Master Guide Uniform your uniform is still green by the way, almost forgot to say so.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 5:57 am 
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Be sure to taper the sash at the shoulder down to three wide if you are going to make it four wide.
If you don't, it will get in the way of everything you do.

I also have a loop sown under the sash that fits in the epaulet to keep the sash from sliding around.
Once the loop was sown on, the sash became no problem to wear as it did not move from its correct location.

I have two sashes and I wear them one on top the other.
The top one (two wide) has the master patches and Camporee patches.
The lower one (three wide) has the normal honor patches.
I tried wearing just the top one, but Pathfinders would always ask where the honors were to justify the master patches.
These two sashes have a snap at the top and tip to keep them together.

The last couple of Camporee patches had to be placed on the inside of the sash as everything is full.


Mr. Mike

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 6:36 am 
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Thanks Mike,

I was planning on tapering it down at the shoulder. I currently use a large safety pin to keep it on the shoulder properly. I really like the idea of sewing a loop on the underside. I will sew one on - that is a very good idea. I am going to use the four wide to put honors on and then will use a second sash for other patches.

I have also thought about scaling the patches like fish scales to make it possible to fit more patches on the sash.


Does anyone else have any other creative ideas on how they handle their patches when their sash is full?

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Alan Weis
KFW Assistant Coordinator for Adventurer Clubs
Webmaster for kfw-adventurers.org
1978 - Master Guide
4-15-06 PLA - Texas Camporee


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 10:03 am 
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At times I have thought I would just leave my sash as it is and not try to add the new honors and Camporee patches to it.
During the last few events I have been on in full dress uniform, I have had the youngest Pathfinders ask me how I got so many patches.
I encourage them to apply themselves to the Pathfinder program and they too will have patches for their efforts.
I guess I will try to keep my sash up-to-date.

Mr. Mike

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 5:23 pm 
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Just another tip on keeping the sash on your shoulder, I am putting Large button holes in the middle of the top to put the epaulet through. We have had trouble for years, and I'm not fond of pinning them.

Chelly


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:37 pm 
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I currently have a sash that is four wide, I made it. I may have to make a second sash as well. I have been in pathfinders for six years, and have acquired a lot of patches..

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Cailin Gerrans "Ms. G."
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:03 pm 
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I did the same as Chelly and put a button hole on top so i can lap the epaulet over the sash. I have a three wide and have taken off basic patches where I have earned the Advanced to make room. I know the "Florida Sash Project" makes a five wide sash and saw one in use on the drilling and marching video available from AdventSource. I know of no regulation but I concern myself with the difference between being proud of accomplishments and adournment. I do recall that many years ago (more than I want to remember) when I took the Adventurer Staff Training Course in Michigan, Norm Middag made a comment obout seeing two sashes worn at the same time crossed over. He let us know that he felt that to be inappropiate and suggested what I stated above. Yes that is where my idea came from as well as his "proper way" to roll / wera the Master Guide scarf. I cannot wear it any other way. I valued his opinion. I think the double sash on top of each other is a great alternative. Just my opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:48 pm 
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The length of it is not really something that should be a problem, because I've seen many with sashes that hang far past their fingertips. Especially short MG's and coordinators. You could make one 4 wide, XX long, whatever would work for you? No real idea. I ran out of room on my XX-long, X-wide sash, and I just put them in a little baggie now :P

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Phillip Bautista - Director
Madera International Ambassadors - 2004
Area 7 Pathfinder Club
Central California Conference


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:08 pm 
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I'm with you, Madera, about the baggie. But my kids are asking where are the ones that I've earned while teaching them? Now my son wants me to make him a 4- or 5-wide sash. They aren't too difficult to make. And if I'm making one I may as well sew a few more while I'm at it! Maybe I can pick up a few dollars for my local club. Sorry Florida.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:18 pm 
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*lol* Which reminds me, I have to reorder some patches i lost..... :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:59 pm 
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona (USA): NAD
The sash is part of a dress (formal) uniform. To wear something five wide that fits the form of "formal wear" you would have to be very broad shouldered.

A neat and clean look to show one's respect for the organization and its purpose (aim & motto) are part of the basic rule of uniforms. The sash is supposed to be under the epaulette (eplit - in the manual) and few adults do this. It can be over and still look right. I know one quite short MG, whom I respect deeply; but his uniform, when in dress, is nothing like a uniform is intended to be: the sashes are too long - so is the rest. We teach the proper fit of clothing in Christian Grooming and Manners it applies to accessories too. Length is defined and an longer sash may be okay within some margin, again too long is a sloppy as too wide.

At what point does it all become adornment? I have about a hundred honors plus Masters and other pins and patches spanning three decades as a Pathfinder and Master Guide service (a short run beside some of you). I do not have to show it all off, like I said, they come out when the kids ask - only; otherwise they collect dust in my office. It strikes me that many years ago the Master Guide Uniform was established to have ony two MV pins one on each lapel and no other emblem. Adults in clubs, even Master Guides, also had a "Regular Club Uniform" that included the Sash and Scarf this was not true of the MG Uniform. It was okay but not required for MG to wear the MV world and Pathfinder Triangle patches on the coat, as well. I am one who has, what you have to call a truly Pathfinder MG Uniform with many pins and the full set of patches, I have kept them in careful order and meticulous positions. There are no non CM and AY pins or patches on it. I have a second coat, on it I wear only the MG pins just as the book calls for.

I know this is all very lecturing; it is a lecture to me, really. I run all of this around in my head often. You see we have to keep the focus, sometimes its funny (ironic) the things we get carried away with and don't realize it. Can you imagine that the early Pathfinder Leaders around the country ever envisioned a time when there would be more than 300 Honors available? Being a MG proves your training, and perseverance. The rest is for show, right? It inspires the kids at times, they love to earn Honors so the can tell me how many they have, I was the same at their age. Now I lead, I earn Honors for interest and teaching. I think none of the people on this forum have ever seen me in uniform (save one), few even know my age. At the risk of not sounding humble, I believe I am well respected here. It is not about what is on your uniform, it is about why you put it on. I put mine of for the kids.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:03 pm 
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EXACTLY Chris.... I'm not old at all, and my accomplishments are not as lenghty as yours, but for the time I've been involved, I've done well for myself. I have just under 100 honors, almost all of the master patches, different patches, etc... blah blah blah... But only so many fit. I have the first honors I earned, and the rest aren't on there. I HAD a space reserved for an FOF camporee patch, but since I didn't go I filled it in.

I only pull out the sash during Class A, and only to "wow" the kids. You know what I mean. My mom is the same way, her sash is full, and she has honors in baggies too. We put on those that we have, and we CONSIDERED....for the point of showing, making a 4 wide, LONG sash, and having a duplicate of ALL the honors we have on there, simply for show and tell.

If you feel that you'd rather put all your honors on your sash... one thing that we've started doing here, don't know if it's available everywhere else, is similar to the "instructor star pin" I've heard there's an "advanced pin" where that pin of a star on a beginner's level honor denotes completion of both. I don't know if I'd do it or not, but just a bit of information to pass on.

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Madera International Ambassadors - 2004
Area 7 Pathfinder Club
Central California Conference


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:14 pm 
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MaderaPF wrote:
If you feel that you'd rather put all your honors on your sash... one thing that we've started doing here, don't know if it's available everywhere else, is similar to the "instructor star pin" I've heard there's an "advanced pin" where that pin of a star on a beginner's level honor denotes completion of both. I don't know if I'd do it or not, but just a bit of information to pass on.


Just for kudos, Adventsource does sell the advanced star pins - at least I was able to get them for our club. They are really simple and a whole lot cheaper than buying extra patches. I think it was about .10 each - maybe .20. I'm looking forward to getting the instructor diamonds for those of us who have taught honors.

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Marcie
Pathfinder Club Director & Master Guide
Chippewa Valley Lightning Pathfinder Club


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:49 pm 
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Yes.. someone knows what I'm talking about HAHA. Just making sure that I wasn't all out there on a limb by myself. For now, our Pathfinders have only been in the organization a year (for all but one) and I'm going to make that an optional idea for them. Of course they only have about 10 honors, so they're going to wanna fill it up as fast as they can. But when their honor sashes are full, we'll consider using the adv. pins. I thought about that idea this year, and I think I'd do it. I have about 15 - 20 advanced honors, and it'd free up some room on my sash if I did that.

Just wondering if I want to spend several hours sewing (i have big hands, small needles, and no sewing machine lol)

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Phillip Bautista - Director
Madera International Ambassadors - 2004
Area 7 Pathfinder Club
Central California Conference


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:00 am 
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Right on! Chris. If a uniform does not have a neat and clean appearance then what example is it giving the kids.

I have a 3 wide shash, I wear only honor and master patches on it (except for the MG crest at the point and an open area for my name badge). For advanced honors I only wear one patch with the advanced star pin on it, this saves some real estate.

My comporee and other event patches are sewn on a tan fishing vest that I wear with my field uniform. This is especially handy because of all the little pockets.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:50 pm 
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I have also seen the honors arranged vertically on a sash to save a little more room. Then I have seen people that wear two, crossed over each other off of each shoulder. It just depends on how you want it to look.

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When you walk through the fire,
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:07 pm 
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I personally don't like the crossed over look. I am an in the background type personality, and while I'm proud of my accomplishments, and the kids are always interested in my full sash, I rarely even where it. To me, Pathfinders is about my kids (the kids in the club) and promoting and encouraging them. I generally only wear the sash for promotional events. Just my opinion I guess, but once it is full, earn the honors, and put them in a baggie. (I've raided that baggie on several occasions to replace a Pathfinders lost patch or for examples for honor boothes.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:26 pm 
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I also do not like the crossed look.
There are pins on the pocket and a class name patch that is covered by the second crossed sash.

Mr. Mike

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:49 am 
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I don't like the crossed over look at all- in my opinion you just look funny. One sash 3 or 4 wide shoud be all you need. I just recently got a 3-wide sash to put my honors on - but then I dont have but 20? patches. I'm really picky about what I earn. I love my camporee patches and wouldn't take them off for anything :D

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Chippewa Valley Lightning Pathfinder Club


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:21 am 
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Hey, I didn't say I liked it. :shock: It was just an idea that I tossed out there. I don't like it at all either though. I think it covers too much up and it doesn't look uniform with everyone else, which is the whole point of a uniform. :P

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“When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze”
Isaiah 43:1-3


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:19 am 
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:cry: I've already given up hope of displaying all my honors on my sash. I have the biggest sash Advent Source makes I think.

I think that's what they made honor masters for, I'm trying for all of them now!

Also, I use the Advanced star. So on honors that I got advanced and regular, I just add a star to my regular honor. It saves on space some too.. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:12 pm 
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Same here Mitch. I've almost got enough for a couple of masters. Don't remember which ones - I'll have to research a little. But yeah, those adv. star pins work wonders for the sash space. Now all I need is some instructor pins for those honors I've taught...

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Chippewa Valley Lightning Pathfinder Club


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 Post subject: Big sashes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:59 pm 
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I bought black cloth form Adventsource and a friend of mine made a five wide. It has a "divet" so that it is "three wide" and the lapel point. It looks realy really nice. I have 160+ honor patches/masters on it, and theres still a LITTLE BIT of room.

The advanced stars have helped too.

Did you know that AdventSource (heads up Lonny) sells "teaching diamonds" for instructors to stick on their honors once they've taught the honor. I've got about 60 of those. Very cool.

P.S. I used to wear two sashes, and was actually offended when people made comments about not being uniform. after all, if they made that many honors, where did "they" EXPECT me to put them? sewed to mybackside?

Anyway, now, as a (slightly more) mature adult, I see that the cross over look isn't as nice as we would wish. However, as a young teen pathfinder, criticisms for POSITIVE work ethic towards honors was highly offensive and annoying. Why do I tell you this? Simply to remind that sashes can become VERY valuable to Pathfinders. . . we must be careful how we converse about a Pathfinder's sash. SOmetimes its more valuable to them then many other things -- it gives them a positive identity that they don't have in any other arena.

On another note, Camporee patches are not technically supposed to go on the sash. Check the NAD Pathfinder manual! :P

Blessings,

Mark O'Ffill

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 Post subject: Bigger Sashes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:05 am 
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OK, I hate to be one of those people who say, "I read someplace..." and then not be able to tell you where I read it, but alas that's what I'm about to do! I did read somewhere a couple of things about sash requirements, but just can not locate the source at this moment (when I need it most, of course--oh how I wish I could remember where it is!).

I did read that two sashes are not to be worn criss-crossed over the body since it is not uniform, and it does cover up the left uniform pocket which has the class-identifying pins, ribbons, etc. I also read that the Master Guide Crest (the BIG patch) is recommended to be worn on the bottom tip of the sash when earned. It is not required, but recommended, and that's where I have mine.

OK, so what are we with no more space to do about a wider/bigger sash? I too saw a man at FOF with the one-piece, six-wide sash. Impressive, but it did kinda look like he was wearing a sarapi or quilt over his shoulder. I have a baggie with about 20 more honors than I can put on my current sash. The only camporee patch I have on mine is the DTP patch, and there's certainly no room for the Adventist Heritage Award or other camporee patches. I think a 4-wide will allow me to give my current homeless patches a home, but then what? I rather like the idea of the stacked sashes, so I may try that.

I did see one other sash at FOF that had lots of space and intrigued me. At first appearance it looked like a regular 3-wide sash, but upon closer inspection it actually had flaps with honors on the front and underside of the flaps. So, you could basically put twice as many patches on it, but it still looked about as nice and neat as a 3-wide. May take a bit of engineering, but may be the most practical option if you really want to have all of your honors with you at once.

Mr. Stark mentions his vest with all of his camporee patches on it earlier on in this thread. I saw it two weeks ago at our Fall Skills Camporee and it looks really good, plus there are lots of handy pockets on the front. I think he may have started a trend here in Illinois now, at least among the MGs with no other place to put camporee patches--I think I'm going to do it too, and others said they would as well.

As for the loop on the underside of the sash, I did this also and it sure is nice for keeping the sash from sliding around! People always ask me how I keep mine from falling off, so I show them and they go home and do it to theirs too.

I am a relatively new Master Guide, so my sash is still black. Maybe this isn't the right spot to mention this topic, but there is actually no official NAD stance, that I'm aware of (and I've talked to those I know on the committee from James Black to Brad Forbes), on the new MGs having to change to green or being allowed to remain in the black skirt/slacks & sash. My personal belief is that if you want to go traditional and have "the suit" you should go green, but I actually do know of a place where we could get the army-style suits made in black with the "P" buttons. It's not cheap, mind you, but excellent quality and available custom made at this point. If lots and lots of people wanted it, it could probably be made less expensively in larger lots.

Sorry this is so long!

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Illinois Conference of Seventh-day Adventists


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