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 Post subject: Why the patch?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:00 pm 
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Master Guide
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona (USA): NAD
Since the PLA and APLA now PIA (in the NAD) were developed in the NAD and are continuing education vs. classes what logic was used by the committee and why in finally choosing to use the sleeve patches are they worn in place of the Master Guide Star.

This is a curiosity and logic question I am hoping that Mark can help shed some light on.

First since the Master Guide is still a Master Guide and the PLA/PIA are not replacement classes why replace the Master Guide Star?

Next why do so many leaders not notice that page 78 of the Staff Manual requires this, and NOT the replacement of the Pathfinder World (similar in shape), and should that be addressed?

Finally why not develop two ribbon bars to designate these accomplishments rather than the patch? Are they not more a designation of an "Advanced Class" rather than a progressive class?

Thank you,

Chris Fishell
Xtreme Youth Resources International


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:13 am 
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I would love to hear the answer to this question because we wear the patch also but as a replacement for the world.

And i think i saw it that way in the General Conference Administrative Manual but i will check again

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:19 am 
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Astute Guide
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There are class pins for PLA and PIA to be worn on the pocket next to the Master Guide pin.
Is a bar really required?
The PIA pin is the the art work collection in the upper left corner of the forum header.

Mr. Mike

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:30 pm 
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we do not wear the pla and pia pin next to the master guide pin, it is said that the Master Guide pin is the highest available class, so we wear them either in line with the other pathfinder classes or just above the pathfinder class pins and below the master guide pin

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AYL MG PLA PIA

"What is a pathfinder?
A Pathfinder is not a what
It's a way of life!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:30 pm 
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Good question, I have no clue. I've emailed your question Chris to some friends of mine that are/were part of the committee that came up with the idea/placement.

Blessings,

Mark O'Fill

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:29 am 
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Astute Guide
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I wear 2.5 rows of pins on my pocket.
The lower row has the Friend through Guide Class pins.
The second row has the Baptismal pin, ARKLA Hall of Fame, PLA, PIA, and Service Stars.
Half a row higher is my Master Guide Pin.
This placement was worked out by our Pathfinder/Adventurer Council (PAC) several years ago.


Mr. Mike

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:40 pm 
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That is a very good question -

When I look at the design of the Patch it automatically say to me to replace the Pathfinder World Patch. The World is in the background of the PIA and PLA patch to show that you successfully complete the advance classes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:26 am 
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What is the NAD status on PLA?

Where does the pin go?

What about patch status?

I am finishing my PLA in October and want to know where and/or how to place the pin and patch.


I need the official word as to what should be done.

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Alan Weis
KFW Assistant Coordinator for Adventurer Clubs
Webmaster for kfw-adventurers.org
1978 - Master Guide
4-15-06 PLA - Texas Camporee


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:26 pm 
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Officially the Master Guide Patch is replaced by the PLA Patch. It does not replace the World Patch. The pin goes in line with the other class pins.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:08 am 
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fish wrote:
Officially the Master Guide Patch is replaced by the PLA Patch. It does not replace the World Patch. The pin goes in line with the other class pins.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell


Chris, do you mean the patch above the left pocket?

Are the patches on the left sleeve untouched?

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Alan Weis
KFW Assistant Coordinator for Adventurer Clubs
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1978 - Master Guide
4-15-06 PLA - Texas Camporee


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:38 am 
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The Left sleeve Master Guide Patch is the Patch Replaced by the PLA Patch. The Highest Class Level is Master Guide; the pocket goes untouched, accept the addition of the pin in your class pins.

The PLA Patch is nearly identical to the World Patch so you will have two similar patches on your left sleeve after being invested as a PLA.

God Bless,

Chris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:37 am 
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And following this tradition, does the PIA replace the PLA patch? Or do you add it as well with three patches on your arm?

I would think that it would replace the PLA, correct? (and for clarification, the PLA world patch is placed underneath the world patch, correct?)

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Madera International Ambassadors - 2004
Area 7 Pathfinder Club
Central California Conference


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:06 pm 
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Not tradition policy.

Yes, the PIA Patch replaces the PLA Patch. Yes, that is under the existing World Patch.

This is why I asked the original question. The Patch is of no proper use. The PLA and PIA/APLA are not Class Levels they are Continuing Education. In the spirit of the AY Class Levels they would be represented by ribbon bars like the Advanced Class Level. I would prefer this, actually, and I am sure it would cause less confusion for others.

God Bless,

Chris Fishell


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:57 pm 
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Yeah, that's what I meant (policy, not tradition. I meant in the same "MANNER" that would have been the better word) :P

This may be a little far to reach out... But here's a thought.

Master Guide has no "Optional" tracks in it. But why does it not have a bar? I know it doesn't have a bar because there is no "optional" track, but it should have a bar nonetheless. POSSIBLY... the bar could have red and blue stars to add on to it similar to how Good Conduct Ribbons have added stars for additional years of Good Conduct. In the same fashion it would be a representation of STILL the Master Guide "Class Level" because there is not a new name strip for it, but it would represent additonal work in Master Guide just as the stars represent additional years of Good Conduct.

What's the possibility of that ever happening? Not too good?

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Phillip Bautista - Director
Madera International Ambassadors - 2004
Area 7 Pathfinder Club
Central California Conference


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:31 pm 
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I think that what is in the staff manual is a misprint. Why would the PLA/PIA patches be shaped like the world patch if they weren't meant to replace it? Are those of us who wear the MG/Chevron combo patch supposed to go back to individual chevrons when the PLA is earned?

There is a Lake Union Pathfinder leadership convention shortly. I'll ask there and report back.

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Todd Stark
Central Illinois AC


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:46 pm 
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Because of the similar World Patch and the PLA and PIA patches, our Conference is replacing the World Patch with the PLA or PIA patch.
It makes no sense to replace the patch with the MG star and all the class chevrons with the PLA or PIA patch.

Mr Mike

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:46 pm 
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Master Guide
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona (USA): NAD
Conferences have all been extended the right in virtually all areas of ministry to adopt their own application in so long as they do not conflict with doctrine or the divion's working policy.

So it is cool that ARKLA has chosen to place it in the position of the AY World Youth pacth. The AY World Youth Patch certainly carries its own particular purpose and distinction though, doesn't it? As I stated originally and still believe as these are continuing education there should be a ribbon bar not a patch and if anythingelse the pin. The concept of the patch simply does not fit the manner with which the uniform has developed. The AY patch is a significant patch one that reminds us that we are part of a larger organization not Pathfinders but world wide Adventist Youth Ministries all of them AYS, Pathfinders, Adventurers, YES Corp and others. It is an important part of the uniform.

And yes, replacing your MG patch with the PLA Patch would mean the PLA is an added class, it is not as MG is all AY and PLA is a Pathfinder Continuing Education module for MG's.

At any rate the manual in this case is not a misprint but is surely not universally used.

Fish


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:21 pm 
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The Unofficial Official word

We all know the NAD (North American Division) Pathfinder Staff Manual is out of date (last updated in 1989). It is also full of misprints. You have been reading and questioning one of these misprints. I have had the privilege to view and review the proposed new edition of the Pathfinder Staff Manual with the appropriate corrections. This is the NAD stand on Pathfinder Leadership Award (PLA) and Pathfinder Instructor Award (PIA) insignia placement.

The PLA Patch replaces the World Patch (AY World Youth Patch).
The PIA Patch replaces the PLA Patch.

As for the Pins:
The Ribbon Bars mentioned refer to the advanced classwork ribbon bars (Friend, Companion, Explorer, Ranger, and Guide). Earning Master Guide (MG), PLA, or PIA has no effect on the placement of these ribbon bars nore is anything to be placed with these ribbon bars except the Good Conduct Award ribbon bar.

The class (Friend, Companion, Explorer, Ranger, and Guide) and/or level (MG, PLA,and PIA) pins are to be lined up across the left pocket lowest (right) to almost highest (left). The highest level achieved (MG, PLA,and PIA) is worn centered above all the other pins. From here there are may questions with just as many interpretations just as there are many conferences.

I hope this helps.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:00 pm 
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your discussions great!

actually im a little bit late. i have seen the PIA/PLA patch just 3 months ago. i thought it was just a pin. well it really looks like the world patch and my companions here placed it between their world patch and the chevron/master guide patch. it really looked disgusting.

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Mountain View College Master Guide Club
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:40 am 
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lonnyn wrote:
The Unofficial Official word

We all know the NAD (North American Division) Pathfinder Staff Manual is out of date (last updated in 1989). It is also full of misprints. You have been reading and questioning one of these misprints. I have had the privilege to view and review the proposed new edition of the Pathfinder Staff Manual with the appropriate corrections. This is the NAD stand on Pathfinder Leadership Award (PLA) and Pathfinder Instructor Award (PIA) insignia placement.

The PLA Patch replaces the World Patch (AY World Youth Patch).
The PIA Patch replaces the PLA Patch.


As for the Pins:
The Ribbon Bars mentioned refer to the advanced classwork ribbon bars (Friend, Companion, Explorer, Ranger, and Guide). Earning Master Guide (MG), PLA, or PIA has no effect on the placement of these ribbon bars nore is anything to be placed with these ribbon bars except the Good Conduct Award ribbon bar.

The class (Friend, Companion, Explorer, Ranger, and Guide) and/or level (MG, PLA,and PIA) pins are to be lined up across the left pocket lowest (right) to almost highest (left). The highest level achieved (MG, PLA,and PIA) is worn centered above all the other pins. From here there are may questions with just as many interpretations just as there are many conferences.

I hope this helps.


Thanks!

That is the most reasonable way to do it that I have seen or read. The Pathfinder manual must and should be updated ASAP to reflect current information.

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Alan Weis
KFW Assistant Coordinator for Adventurer Clubs
Webmaster for kfw-adventurers.org
1978 - Master Guide
4-15-06 PLA - Texas Camporee


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:19 am 
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Yes, PLA Patch replaces the World Patch. I was invested as PLA this past Sabath and that was one thing that Mike, Conf Youth Director, mentioned when he talk about it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:29 pm 
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lonnyn wrote:
The Unofficial Official word

We all know the NAD (North American Division) Pathfinder Staff Manual is out of date (last updated in 1989). It is also full of misprints...

Amen to that! I have been telling people (certain counselers and staff in my club) this for years, but they won't believe me! maybe i'm just to "young" to be respected... thanks for clearing this up, as i am hoping to finish my PLA work with in the next year or so and am glad to know that i can put the patch somewhere where it actually makes sense to put it!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:39 pm 
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That is good to know. I plan on being invested as PLA in september and I'm glad to know how to place the patch. Thanks for researching that for us!!

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:01 pm 
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Alan wrote:

Thanks!

That is the most reasonable way to do it that I have seen or read. The Pathfinder manual must and should be updated ASAP to reflect current information.



Yes, and it needs to be...

- electronic so it can be updated easily and we don't go another 10 or 20 years without an update.

- available online, so the latest information can flow down to the clubs in a timely and affordable fashion.

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Woodlands Pathfinder Club
Ponoka, Alberta, Canada


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 Post subject: Re: Why the patch?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:51 am 
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On the PIA Patch what the colors Blue (Traingle) and Yellow (Star) represent.

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